Meanwhile, the owner of a Bethel Island restaurant said her insurance has already more than doubled in the wake of this week’s ECCFPD cuts.
“I should have gotten more involved” in the effort to pass Measure S, said Donna Simon, owner of Island Joe’s restaurant on Bethel Island after she was informed that her policy was jumping from $200 to $489 per month. “I don’t know what I’m going to do now.”
Measure S, a parcel tax meant to offset the plunging property tax revenue, was soundly defeated last month, resulting in the July 1 closure of three of the district’s six fire stations, including Bethel Island’s Station 95. In addition to the shuttering of their 70-year-old station, Islanders faced the loss of emergency medical services provided by American Medical Response’s (AMR) quick-response vehicle (QRV) that had been based in the station.
AMR General Manager Leslie Mueller said the island’s QRV will remain in place until mid-July, after which it will be replaced by an ambulance with two paramedics. The two paramedics will make it possible for the ambulance crew to do more than the one-person QRV, which relied on help from firefighters from the now-closed station. The ambulance will be able to transport patients as well, which the QRV could not.
Mueller said details were still being finalized for housing the ambulance, but it would most likely be along Cypress Road in Oakley, either near Sellers Avenue or at Main Street. In addition to Bethel Island, the ambulance will also cover Oakley and Knightsen, as well as other parts of the district on an as-needed basis. In the event the ambulance is committed to a lengthy call, additional resources will be shifted to cover the area, Mueller said.
But as fire engine response times are expected to as much as double, Islanders are doing what they can to protect themselves and their property. The Island’s Chamber of Commerce has begun taking names of residents interested in learning CPR; another group has redoubled efforts to provide unpressurized “dry hydrants” from which fire engines can draw water from the Delta; and work has begun to get Station 95 designated a historic building to allow renovations, perhaps by volunteers who could one day augment the fire crews as well.
The station has been declared unfit for habitation by fire or QRV crews due to toxic mold and asbestos. Repairs are complicated by the requirement that all new buildings or major renovations on the island raise the structure above the flood plain, something not needed for a historical designation, according to Island resident Christine Thresh.
“It could be a staging area or a place for firefighters on a long call to get some food or rest or a shower,” said Thresh. “We might even try to get a deputy sheriff there. It has a lot of possibilities.”
Thresh added that an examination by a contractor who might be able to assist in the renovations showed that the historical designation makes it possible for the renovations to be made at a fraction of the $1 million-plus price tag estimated by county officials a couple of years ago.
The district is currently looking into the possibility of establishing a volunteer arm, but efforts have only recently been started to determine if there’s enough interest to provide the 40 to 50 qualified volunteers needed. Fire Chief Hugh Henderson said Tuesday that his office received about two dozen phone calls from interested people after news reports about volunteers came out last week. It’s unclear how many of those are qualified, said Henderson, who is finalizing the application process and hopes to post detail next week on the district’s website, www.eccfpd.org.
Mark Whitlock is also working to improve Island defenses. He’s been spearheading work on a system of “dry hydrants” located on the water’s edge that will provide hookups for fire engines to pump directly out of the Delta. Last week, the ECCFPD successfully tested eight such hydrants.
“By the end of this summer, I’m looking to have 32 or so working,” said Whitlock. The hydrants, which cost between $1,200 to $1,500 each, are being paid for by the myriad water companies on the island, including 17 hydrants that will be covered by the largest company, Pleasant Time Water. A couple of residents have also paid for hydrants near their homes, Whitlock said.
“These hydrants are going to be critical in the future,” said Director Bob Cameron of the Bethel Island Municipal Advisory Commission (BIMAC). Cameron also said they’re hoping to raise an estimated $3,000 to $4,000 to pay for a pump that would pressurize standard fire hydrants along Bethel Island Road. Those hydrants have been waterless since the previous pump was lost due to the construction of the new Bethel Island Bridge.
Henderson praised Island residents for doing what they can to help themselves, even if they can’t don turnouts and man a hose.
“The community is trying to prepare themselves for emergencies, and that’s excellent,” Henderson said. “Not everyone can be a firefighter, but almost anyone can perform CPR.”
Whitlock said officials from AMR and the fire district would be on hand at next week’s BIMAC meeting, and he hopes to see many residents there eager to learn what’s being done and what they can do to assist. The meeting will be held at 6 p.m. in the Bethel Island Municipal Improvement District office, 3085 Stone Road.




I read the article as you suggested and immediately knew there would be rhetoric because of the author. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/harold-schaitberger/public-employee-pensions_b_1665029.html
It was interesting reading but it still does not relieve the public from paying more money that will force less services. Here is why,
According to an example about a home mortgage and the homeowner owing much more than the purchase of the home because of interest of which is spread out over several years is true. However, the fact that the mortgage payment is fixed is not mentioned. This is quite different from the pension payments. This is why our district is 29 million in debt. The Fire District pension payment varies and is manipulated by unforeseen raises, spikes, turnover, and pension renegotiations unlike the home mortgage can be. In addition, when a homeowner over purchases on a variable interest rate, that payment can also increase out of control forcing foreclosure or bankruptcy. The difference between our situation and the homeowners is the homeowner walks away and the bank looses. In this case the public is forced to continue paying more interest or higher taxes and receives less services. One of the examples by the General President mimics the same thought that homeowners had when they over purchased homes this past eight years. Look what happened, the system collapsed, people walked away, and banks went out of business. The same will happen to fire districts for over generous pensions and under payments when the public cannot afford to pay the escalating over general pensions that do not have a fixed rate for the entire firefighter force for the next 30 years. This is one reason for measure S failure. ECCFPD wanted to try to increase its pension payments with the new tax to 85% by the fourth year. This actually was a great idea to begin controlling costs and debt. Many people were not even aware of that fact. The problem is like the homeowner who could not afford his high payment any longer and said no, why should I throw good money to a failing mortgage. The fire districts are under paying falsely under estimated payments that will lead to eventual bankruptcy. When that happens all the firemen in that plan will lose their pensions just like the banks that went out of business because of the same scam. It is just like a pyramid scheme ( which is now illegal), the people first in or on the bottom make out like a bandit ( a comparison are all the firefighters already retired at 200K plus annually) . The system had plenty of money because the retirees were small in quantity and everything is great. Twenty years from now as the pyramid begins paying out more than it brings in due to spikes, raises, benefits, increased recipients, etc., the system will begin to collapse on itself. This is why the unfunded liability is a debt that we cannot afford to keep increasing and paying less on. The only alternate is to pay as you go to insure everyone twenty years down the road has a retirement. This is another reason why the pension board continues to allow unrealistic pension investment returns of 7%. If the pension boards used actual return rate figures of say 3% of which is still high for today's investment return, a huge amount of fire districts along with other different public services would immediately go bankrupt. The new firefighters and those with five years or less will never see a real pension unless they also force the districts to pay as you go. This needs to be addressed now not later.
Instead we pay them twice as much. Look at this. This is why Kris Hunt and the people voted no. They will keep voting no too I bet.
Contra Costa County Clausen, Curtis D Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $305,426
Contra Costa County Pohlhammer, Michael K Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $308,761
Contra Costa County Woods, David R Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $299,665
Contra Costa County Walker, William J Battalion Chief-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $298,307
Contra Costa County Platt, Kevin M Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $296,588
Contra Costa County Brondolo, Alfred Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $285,614
Contra Costa County Stovell, Joy P Fire Engineer/56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $285,216
Contra Costa County Quesada, Michael S Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $283,389
Contra Costa County Manzo Jr., Louis Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $281,676
Contra Costa County Kipp, John P Battalion Chief-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $280,592
Contra Costa County Peterson, Darin E Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $279,712
Contra Costa County Smart, Jamie B. Fire Engineer/56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $276,982
Contra Costa County Cormier, Keith J Battalion Chief-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $276,163
Contra Costa County Sonsteng, Richard J Battalion Chief-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection Districtc $276,124
Contra Costa County Penaloza, Franklin Fire Engineer/56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $273,388
Contra Costa County Newberry, Terry R Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $273,214
Contra Costa County Freeman Jr, Richard M Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $271,466
Contra Costa County Wannamaker, Scott A Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $270,252
County Stralovich, Catherine S Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $269,434
Contra Costa County Smith, Benjamin T Battalion Chief-40 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $269,366
Contra Costa County Dick, Eugene E Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $269,098
Contra Costa County Alailima Jr, Elia Fire Engineer/56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $268,192
Contra Costa County Hartford, Alan B Battalion Chief-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $267,720
Contra Costa County Walker, Ronnie M Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $265,826
Contra Costa County Gleeson, Tim P Fire Engineer/56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $264,826
Contra Costa County Depolo, Matthew J. Fire Engineer/56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $264,821
Contra Costa County Danielson, Donald C Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $264,787
Contra Costa County Burris Jr., Xon C Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $264,396
Contra Costa County Robb, Kenneth R Fire Engineer/56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $262,857
Yes, Contra Costa Fire Protection district is a completely separate department from the EAST Contra Costa Fire Protection district. It is about as similar as LAFD and NYFD. Regardless, Notice there is not a single salary on that list from the ECCFPD.
Is this better for you dummies
Eccfpd
East Contra Costa Fpd 252,573.00 .
-Eccfpd
East Contra Costa Fpd $210,769
-Eccfpd
East Contra Costa Fpd $204,473
Now onto your ECCFPD figures, kinda hard that these $200,000 salaries you claim is a reality when they are all making between $50-75,000 per year. But to show you how wrong you are, let’s look at Chief Hugh Henderson who is not even in the union and is highest paid in the Dept.
His base salary according to the Times, is $126,671, not the $200-$250,000 you claim.
Stop fibbing Millie, its not nice.
I find it interesting that you are calling all of us dumb while all of your examples are from a completely different fire district! Please do a little more research next time before you go casting aspersions. In addition - Kris Hunt does not live within East Contra Costa Fire Protection District's area, and therefore she did not have a vote in the election. So basically everything you have stated here is inaccurate. Good try though. Better luck next time.
There have been some very vocal folks in the last few months talking about how the District overspends and emphasizing the need to return to a volunteer-based service delivery model. I look forward to hearing that Mark_from-Brentwood, EastCountyReader, et al, have submitted their volunteer applications to the Fire Chief and are participating in volunteer training. After their training is over, I'm sure they'll tell us about how they are 'walking it like they talk it" by responding to fire responses at 3 in the morning and overhauling until 7.
Privatization. Cite one privatized fire suppression service providing municipal fire protection anywhere in California. How about Nevada? New York, maybe? There is no profit in providing fire protection. That's why there wasn't any in California until departments were formed by municipalities.
Many have extolled the virtues of the QRV and private ambulance but few have investigated response time data or how AMR reassigns ambulances from East County to Central County to shore up response time commitments where the money is. I encourage you to look into it by contacting the Contra Costa County EMS office and asking to review response time reports as well as the contract requirements.
Regarding retirement, firefighters in Contra Costa County contribute between 22% and 34% of the their gross salary to their retirement. If each of us were committing that much of our gross to our retirement, we would all be able to retire early and live well. But, most of us don't.
East Contra Costa Fire Protection District firefighters make significantly less than ANY full-time professional firefighters ANYWHERE in the Bay Area. In fact, there isn't a department anywhere in California where firefighters make less per capita of population served or number of incident responses per firefighter. We were getting a bargain. Proposition S was the firefighters asking us to help them provide improved service. Not once did the ask us for a salary increase. In fact, they were agreeing to a reduction in their overall salary/benefit package. All they asked for was the opportunity to provide the same service that the rest of the County departments provide at a substantially lower cost. But we said no.
Some criticize the fire commissioners and the fire chief for electing to staff three stations with three firefighters instead of staffing four stations with two. We weren't willing to come up with $197 per household per year but we suggest that they, after reducing their staffing by 50%, to work with crew levels that are 1/2 that recommended by the National Fire Protection Association? If the shoe were on the other foot, which one of us would agree to such conditions?
Folks can "talk" all they want to. But they won't be able to offer one researchable fact contradicting any of the above. And no, I am not, and have never been, an employee of the ECCFPD.
The Eccfpd laid off just over a third or 34-37% of their workforce.(The Press/june 14,2012/Three fire stations ordered to close)
The people that serve this community and reside here Need to quit crying over spilled milk (ie. the election) and come up with constructive ideas for the resources we are left with.
That includes basic and advances life support that is provided by the County EMS system through AMR/ ambulance/paramedic/quick response vehicles, and providing assistance to motorists who are locked out of their cars which AAA and others do quite well.
Also I didn't see any analysis of this cost to the community during the discussion of deployment strategies over the last couple of weeks (after the new tax measure was defeated).
Keep in mind that board could have kept an additional station open by deploying two, rather than three firefighters per station (with a third firefighter deployed out of one of the stations) and at the same time reduced the number of firefighters lay-offs. That would have minimized this sort of cost to the community.
Even without any formal analysis of the financial cost/benefit to the community several board members favored keeping another station open. The union and the Fire Chief were strongly against the deployment plan that would keep the additional station open, citing their views on best practices in the industry.
Now why don't we compare the home valuation decreases, which lower property taxes, to the cost of Measure S. That is the reality of where the department's deficit came from, lowered property taxes and vacant homes where no taxes were being paid at all. Lower taxes collected, fewer funds available to the districts all the way around. I know pensions are an easy target, but they are such a small factor. And if you are basing your pension info off of what Dave Roberts said, he admitted after the fact that is info was based on ConFire's numbers, not ECCFPD.
That is a very good point you raise. However, if the pay for firefighters was scaled to a percentage variance of taxes high or low, I would be favorable to that. The problem is when the taxes are high government overspends and does not give back. When they are low like now, government wants more. It seems to be one sided way. Some years they would make huge wages while other years they would get far less. The problem is most people expect to keep what was given. This is why the entire situation has become so difficult.
Your comment on " no taxes were being paid " is moot because the district will get those funds or own the house via a lien.
The $600.00 that is contributed is great; except I am positive it is offset by the wage negotiation received.
Let's face it there is obviously a problem but dumping more money into a district only ten years old that is already 29 million in debt is also a problem. It seems reorganizing all county fire and dealing with the pensions, ALS, work shifts, and many other options appear to be the only solution. Too many people are criticizing the alternative solutions such as reserves, two person engine companies, overhead, and a few others.
I hear the commission is now considering the same thing the Supervisors did, dump the responsibility by making a citizen commission. This will also not solve the problem just pass it to someone else until they give up.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/harold-schaitberger/public-employee-pensions_b_1665029.html
Rather than paying $197-250 per year for 10 years ($2,200 total), Island Joe's gets stuck with an annual increase this year of $3,468 while next year it will also likely increase.
Now you are blaming them for the three person model? It's obvious you want to blame them for everything and make all this their fault, but please try to be a little more consistent in your criticism. This is your most blatant, twisted attempt yet.
And even if they had gone with the four-station model, it would have meant the other Brentwood station stayed open, not Bethel Island. In fact, with the four station thing there would only have been two firefighters within 15 minutes of BI, not three.
I categorically disagree with you on a four station model being the best model, along with some other points. While it is true that having four engines covering a large area would provide better response times in theory, the time gained is negated once the two firefighters are tasked with a job that normally takes at least three – and there are a lot. If the firefighters cannot effectively and efficiently do their job when they arrive on scene, then it doesn’t matter how quickly they got there. The three station, three person model allows the firefighters to effectively and safely do their job when they arrive to whatever type of 911 call for service and to better comply with existing laws pertaining to firefighter safety, such as the OSHA 2 in 2 out rule. If response times were all that mattered, then we could put a medical bag and an AED on a Corvette with two firefighters aboard and get to any call very quickly! And yes, two person engine companies were used quite a bit in the past, but that doesn’t mean it was appropriate. That staffing level is highly inefficient and very hard on the firefighters – especially when there aren’t any volunteer firefighters to assist. There is a reason why four retirees out of the last 6 had to retire due to injuries sustained on the job. This district has a lot of firefighter line of duty injuries that require surgery to correct. There are quite a few younger firefighters that have gone through surgery to stay on the job. The pressure to stay with the three person, three station model came from a groundswell of public support, and not a great deal of pressure from the union or fire chief. They gave their support for the model, but that was it. All of the proposed choices were bad choices, but the three person model was the best of the worst when it comes down to what provides the best level of service and provides the best level of safety for the firefighters.
All of this aside, keeping an engine out in Bethel Island or Knightsen was not even on the table as a possibility, so they were going to lose what fire service they still had no matter what. I found this to be a bit of a shock since we are now leaving so many people without service of any kind. Even if station 94 was the only one out of the two to remain in service, the area would have had a lot better coverage than the Oakley station covering all three. You are correct in your belief that Bethel Island pays a great deal more than most areas in the district. If memory serves, they pay about 18% out of the 1% toward fire service, which is about triple the amount Oakley or Brentwood puts toward it.. The only other areas who pay around the same are Marsh Creek/Morgan Territory and Discovery Bay.
As far as the fire hydrants on Bethel Island are concerned, it wasn’t just deferred maintenance that put an end to their service. The pipes underground were damaged due to all of the dump trucks and other big rigs driving over them so much during the construction of Delta Coves. To replace the system at this point would cost a lot of money without a large enough gain in service - money that the district does not have. The cost outweighs the benefit here quite a bit.
large incident with three fires on sandmound tonight. 2 man crews would have been a recipe for disaster tonight.
I am glad people ignore your suggestions. Tonight is a perfect example why 2-man crews don't work and people would have lost their homes and boats tonight.
I understand what you are saying the three person companies. If the circumstances were different I would fully support the three person company. In fact, where my business is we have four person companies. Of course I pay an additional $ 1,000.00 in fees over and above the taxes. My comment was speaking of today's circumstance with this district. I didn't say if it was right or wrong because both methods would work better under different circumstances ( medical or structure call ). Either way, it is what it is. I'm sure there will be much more debate and arguments before any real permanent solution is enacted. I think it will take everyone to meet in the middle to move forward. I see Brentwood forming a City Fire Department before that happens or the County forcing Con Fire to accept East County. If you have been around awhile the East County area and Con Fire merge was very close to happening twenty years ago. At that time the POC's were very close to the Communities and it was derailed. Today Con Fire does not want us because the Sups and Cities failed to create Fire Assessment Districts while approving all the development leaving east county with underfunded fire.
When this round of closures was going to take place I never thought they would keep Knightsen unless it was for strategic purposes. I really thought they would keep Bethel Island if there was any way. Even the people at Cypress Lakes lose out and they pay the 18% you stated and are the only special fire assessment collected in the District. I'm surprised they do not ask for the cancellation of their special assessment with no coverage anywhere near.
No matter what happens I hope the BOS step in soon and at least mediate, consolidate, combine, contribute, or at least assist in the rectification of our dilemma since they drove in this direction for the past fifty years. It will take more than just money to fix this mess.
I agree with you completely when you say that it will take everyone meeting in the middle in order for things to move forward. This has been the problem for the past 30 years. People want to hold on to their own little piece of the pie without considering what would be best for the public. It is high time for that to stop, because we can see where that has gotten us. Like you said, I am also sure there will be more debates and arguments before any real solution is reached, and I am sure another study will be requested at a cost of $60,000 plus - which is unfortunate and a complete waste of time and money since we already know what has to be done.
I don’t see how Brentwood can successfully put together its own fire department. The costs alone are prohibitive, because it takes a lot more than putting together a group of people with a fire engine and a station to have a viable fire department. No matter what, Brentwood would still have to depend on Con Fire and surrounding fire districts to handle emergencies. It isn’t very pragmatic to form a fire department by stripping surrounding engine companies, when you would still have to depend on them for any emergency that requires a multi-engine response.
While I think that merging with Con Fire would be a possible and viable option, I do not see how it would happen. Why would Walnut Creek, Clayton, Pittsburg, Concord and Antioch and other cities agree to spend their money to pick up the slack for East Contra Costa? It would be political suicide for the Board of Supervisors to force that into happening, and I just don’t see that happening unfortunately (even though there are positives and negatives as far as merging with Con Fire are concerned).
I have been in this area my whole life, and my family has been involved in the fire service here since 1963 when my grandfather started working as a volunteer firefighter on Bethel Island. I served as a POC firefighter, engineer and captain for the Bethel Island Fire Protection District and worked as a full-time firefighter for East Diablo Fire at the same time prior to the merger. After the merger and formation of ECCFPD, I rose through the full-time ranks and ended up having to retire as a fire captain due to back and neck injuries I sustained on the job.
I do remember when Oakley/Knightsen was under the Con Fire umbrella because I was working as a POC for Bethel Island at the time. I recall the politics that led to the dissolution of the merge and the people involved in it all. I understand the reasons why the negative feelings toward 1230 exist because of the behavior shown by some of its members. Had things worked out a bit differently, we might not be having this conversation right now and the whole area might be under Con Fire’s jurisdiction. In speaking with a few of the Oakley volunteers at the time and since then, it sounds like mistakes were made on both sides and people have since realized that service would be a lot better had the firefighters been able to work things out at the time. I guess it just wasn’t meant to be.
Yes, the county and cities failed to create fire assessment districts at the time, but I seem to remember the fire chiefs in Oakley and Brentwood having a hand in that as well. I have some frustration that the county, cities, and ECCFPD administration did not ask for a tax measure when the district was formed in 2002 or soon after. The chief officers, city and county administrators, along with just about everyone knew very well at the time that money was needed for the district to be successful, yet the trigger was never pulled and here we are today. In the end it is all in the past and we have to stop dwelling in it. We need to remember what happened and learn from it so that the same mistakes are not made, but we have to look at our current situation and figure out what needs to be done moving forward so that in ten years we don’t look back and regret that something wasn’t done now.
I had two scenarios in my mind when they were talking about this round of station closures. The first one I had in my mind was the current deployment. But, I thought that if they were going to go with a four station model, that they would have staffed Knightsen along with the other three. I was shocked when the different staffing models were proposed and they wanted to staff the downtown Brentwood station instead of Knightsen in both of the four station models. I was convinced that they were going to close station 95 no matter what, since they had to do so much work to the station and the crews were living in a FEMA trailer.
I really believe that this is going to take some strong leadership from the ECCFPD Fire Board, County Board of Supervisors, Local 1230, and ECCFPD Administration’s part if we have any hope of a successful and positive outcome. Not everyone is going to be happy in the end, but that doesn’t matter. What really matters is that the public is provided the fire service that they deserve, and right now they aren’t even getting close to that.
I am very glad to see that there are others out there like yourself who look at the entire picture and history subjectively and only in the best interest of the public. One of your comments sticks out and says allot. It is the political decisions instead of the overall picture of the district that are hurting it. Just as you spoke of ConFire not wanting to take East County because of the tax difference, it appears the East County Fire Commission is basing its decisions on political pressure too. It seems the same separate attitudes self protect only certain areas rather than thinking in unity for the entire area. This all has to do with money and politics of course. I didn't see this type of attitude when ConFire merged in Riverview as those tax percentages were different too. Yet for some political reason the "we they" monster attitude here has taken control. I think if the " we they " monster can be transformed into an “us” team attitude we could move on. As you stated it will only work when ECCFPD Fire Board, County Board of Supervisors, Local 1230, and ECCFPD Administration show unified leadership for the entire district and not specific political areas or reasons. This is why some of the simple ideas to assist the district are being met with hostility. They are not politically correct even if they are workable. There again, this is why I conclude the only alternative is ConFire forced to accept ECCFP or an entire new county fire, or bankruptcy. I do not think the political will of the leaders will change. It’s human nature to protect and self preservation when it comes to politicians. Unfortunately the public is the victim. I pray no lives are lost because of this.