Fire Station 95 in Bethel Island will close on Monday.
Photo by Rick Lemyre
Photo by Rick Lemyre
Fire Chief Hugh Henderson told the district board Monday that between 40 and 50 active volunteers would be needed district-wide to handle non-emergency calls and provide backup in emergencies. The need for first-responders would be even greater, said Henderson, who estimated that a volunteer program would need to provide 40 first-responders per station, or about 120 in all.
The district currently utilizes about 15 reserve firefighters, some of whom could help form the core of a volunteer pool, Henderson said. The existing reserve program was eliminated effective July 1 as part of the preliminary budget approved Monday.
Although the volunteers would not be paid for training or answering calls – reserves are paid for those activities – the volunteer program does come with a cost. Each volunteer must receive 240 hours of initial training, be outfitted with $6,000 in gear and undergo rigorous background checks and medical reviews. A special workers compensation insurance policy would also be required for the volunteers, bringing the total cost to the district to about $10,000 per volunteer.
The ECCFPD was formed in 2002 out of three smaller districts that began as volunteer or paid-on-call (POC) districts. After consolidation, about a third of the POCs in the smaller districts were hired as full-timers, while others failed to pass medical tests or background checks, or simply chose not to apply. Critics of firefighter union Local 1230, which came with consolidation, blamed the union for establishing hostile working conditions for the part-timers that led to decreased participation and the demise of the program.
On Monday, Local 1230 Vice President Gil Guerrero assured the board the union would not inhibit the formation of a volunteer arm. “If volunteers are the direction you want to go, we won’t stand in the way,” Guerrero said. “Just be real clear on what it is.”
After the meeting, Guerrero, one of the POCs hired at consolidation, said he did not anticipate tension between volunteers and union crews. The major task, he said, would be encouraging volunteers to remain in the ECCFPD instead of use their expensive training to secure a paid position in another district. Guerrero also anticipated that ongoing training, requiring about 20 hours per month, might be a problem for many potential volunteers.
The cost of a volunteer program, however, was not part of the $8.1 million budget approved by the board Monday. The district was forced to cut its bottom line from $11.5 million after voters soundly rejected the $197 parcel tax aimed at offsetting plummeting property tax revenues. A district budget adjustment that would pay for the volunteer program, if adopted, would be made prior to passage of the next ECCFPD budget in September.
But the board must first determine whether there is enough interest to actually form a volunteer arm. Director Jim Frazier asked that a target of 60 interested residents be set in order to allow for attrition and still arrive at the requisite 40 personnel, but the board ultimately voted 6-3 to require only 40 interested people in order to move forward with the plan. Directors Pat Anderson and Robert Kenny joined Frazier in voting no.
Henderson was directed to begin advertising to gauge interest in a volunteer program, making sure applicants are aware of what the job entails. In addition to the 240 hours of preliminary training, volunteers would undergo 60 hours of medical training and possibly 100 hours learning to drive a fire engine and operate its pumps. An additional 240 hours of training would be required every year – the same as the career firefighters the volunteers would work with. If enough volunteers can be found, Henderson said, a volunteer program could be up and running in about six months.
Also on Monday, Henderson told the board that changing from an appointed board to one chosen by residents would require two elections, one to ask residents if they want an elected board, and one to actually elect the directors. District boundaries must also be drawn, bringing the cost of transition to an elected board to about $300,000.
Since only $800,000 is expected to be left in district reserves, the board decided instead to consider the possibility of asking the cities of Brentwood and Oakley to appoint citizen directors to replace the seven (three from Oakley and four from Brentwood) city council members now serving. The County Board of Supervisors already appoints the two directors now representing the unincorporated areas.
The board also formally approved its reduced preliminary budget, but not before some tense discussions about the future. Director Steve Barr proposed a list of nine ideas brought forward by the public and asked directors to place them on a future agenda for consideration. The ideas included possibly revising dispatch procedures so only ambulances or the three quick-response paramedic vehicles in the district are sent to pure medical calls. Recovering costs of services provided to out-of-towners involved in traffic accidents, creating new benefit tiers for new hires, and soliciting bids for services from other agencies were also on the list, which will be discussed at a workshop later this year.
Other ideas that surfaced in discussion included Bethel Island resident Christine Thresh’s suggestion about getting the Bethel Island station designated as a historical building. Erected in 1948 but slated to close July 1, the worn out building has not been upgraded because substantial improvements would require raising it on stilts above the flood plain. Such requirements do not apply to historic buildings, meaning a historical designation could allow the station to be rehabilitated to serve as a volunteer-staffed location.
To learn more about being a volunteer firefighter or to get an application, contact the ECCFPD at 925-634-3400.
First of all let me say thank you for your service to the public. I think everyone appreciates the work our firefighters do tremendously.
The figures the lady below listed I believe are “gross figures". They include everything the District has to pay out to keep that position open.
The misconception that many think is that some of those dollars are paid by someone else independently. This may be the case. However those dollars still originate from the taxpayers. Therefore, the dollars shown are actual dollars that that position/firefighter cost.
In fact, in the case of pensions it's even more of a cost to taxpayers. This is because the commission that sets the projected return rates on pensions is way off. No one has seen 7.5% average return in a very long time. It is also stated by financial analysts that we will not see 7.5% return for many more years. The over projected returns on the pension investments will end up costing the taxpayers more after the firefighter has retired. This is because the pension contributions have been short paid for a long time. A good example is the article in Sunday’s paper by Dan Borenstein of the CC Times.
This should also explain one of the reasons your City of Stockton is bankrupt and many others are on the way to bankruptcy. It’s not the base salary that is creating this mess, it’s all the added costs above that.
I agree that Stockton’s problems were not specific to the Fire Department. That is just a small portion compared to the other debt it incurred. You do bring up a statement that supports part of my comment. You stated that the projected rate of return is 1.7%. on Cal Pers. I’m pretty sure Contra Costa uses a similar formula and is just as in trouble as Cal Pers. This is precisely one of my points. The pension contribution from you the Firefighter and the City are based on a 7.5% return. They should be base on 1.7% as you quoted but that would bankrupt many places immediately because they have underpaid so long. Therefore when the time comes and "x" firefighter who has already retired and paid into the system based on a 7.5% return will then leave the 5.8% short for the taxpayers to make up. If the taxpayers say no, then services are cut. This is another reason for the Districts budgets being eaten up. Eventually there will be more retirees than income of the fund to carry it.
As far as a firefighter who makes $60k annual in the Bay Area, I agree that is not enough pay for salary. That really has never been the problem. The problem is the other cost per firefighter over and above the salary. People don't realize that there is more to pay than the check that they receive. There is workman’s comp, health ins, dental ins, vacation, vision ins, uniform cost, personal time off, educational costs, income tax, unemployment tax, etc. These are all a part of the cost of each employed position. When those costs tallied up equal the six figures and up in many cases, it still is what it cost. That’s not all either. When the pension contributions are short paid (instead of paid as you go annually) as they have been along with the economic problems, we have the result. Since the firefighter pays for some of their own retirement, they get even more of a break by not paying the true cost of overestimated pension returns. The public looses again because the contributions are not paid properly as we go.
Nobody likes it and something has to change or bankruptcy is the final solution. Then the process starts all over again and those caught in the bankruptcy will be forced to give up more than they would have by being realistic in the first place.
I've been watching this fire stuff. I am so glad that we still get medical paramedics and an ambulance. I saw this post on Halfway to concord and had to share with you because of your nasty words to East County Reader. I also looked up your pay. You show making over $205,000. dollars.
The men I see below are even more. So, if East County is underpaid compared to the men then yes. These men are terribly over paid. If someone took 10% of a $300,000 dollar pay then that's not enough. When you say firemen in east county can apply for food stamps that tells me you are an overpaid funny man. Thanks to our new supervisor we now have an ambulance and two paramedics on the Island after you and your union left us.
Contra Costa County Clausen, Curtis D Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $305,426
Contra Costa County Pohlhammer, Michael K Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $308,761
Contra Costa County Woods, David R Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $299,665
Contra Costa County Walker, William J Battalion Chief-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $298,307
Contra Costa County Platt, Kevin M Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $296,588
Contra Costa County Brondolo, Alfred Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $285,614
Contra Costa County Stovell, Joy P Fire Engineer/56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $285,216
Contra Costa County Quesada, Michael S Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $283,389
Contra Costa County Manzo Jr., Louis Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $281,676
Contra Costa County Kipp, John P Battalion Chief-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $280,592
Contra Costa County Peterson, Darin E Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $279,712
Contra Costa County Smart, Jamie B. Fire Engineer/56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $276,982
Contra Costa County Cormier, Keith J Battalion Chief-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $276,163
Contra Costa County Sonsteng, Richard J Battalion Chief-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection Districtc $276,124
Contra Costa County Penaloza, Franklin Fire Engineer/56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $273,388
Contra Costa County Newberry, Terry R Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $273,214
Contra Costa County Freeman Jr, Richard M Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $271,466
Contra Costa County Wannamaker, Scott A Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $270,252
County Stralovich, Catherine S Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $269,434
Contra Costa County Smith, Benjamin T Battalion Chief-40 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $269,366
Contra Costa County Dick, Eugene E Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $269,098
Contra Costa County Alailima Jr, Elia Fire Engineer/56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $268,192
Contra Costa County Hartford, Alan B Battalion Chief-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $267,720
Contra Costa County Walker, Ronnie M Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $265,826
Contra Costa County Gleeson, Tim P Fire Engineer/56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $264,826
Contra Costa County Depolo, Matthew J. Fire Engineer/56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $264,821
Contra Costa County Danielson, Donald C Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $264,787
Contra Costa County Burris Jr., Xon C Fire Captain-56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $264,396
Contra Costa County Robb, Kenneth R Fire Engineer/56 Hour
Ccc Fire Protection District $262,857
Mr. Wells you probably think these firemen and yourself are underpaid too. The real world does not need $200,000 firemen. To think the other county fire wants more money too. This is just wrong when so many people are going without.
I don’t know you and don’t know what you do for a living, but you would make a great science fiction writer. Your ability to spin and create conspiracy and corruption with the stroke of your typewriter is a talent. Considering you don’t know me, and you have no clue how our union works, and definitely lack the knowledge of fire and emergency services based on your most recent comments about BI, you should get off this site. We are dealing with “real world” situations here that impact lives, property and the environment.
Your efforts have been to turn one group against another, apply blame, and demand the impossible to resolve a realistic life situation. Your efforts increase the magnitude of the problem and aren’t working to resolve them at all. You have an “axe to grind” and the community around you has to help you grind it. It is self serving like you accuse me of being.
You have chosen to take the easy route regarding fire and emergency services in East County. It is very popular to blame unions, and attack politicians when everyone is struggling financially. Knowing that the housing market crash had nothing to do with fire fighters or fire protection in East County. It impacted it. It put the final bullet in the head of a financially underfunded fire district. So you blame me and Local 1230 for that... Please! It is like the two- year old folding his arms and saying “no”, when he doesn’t get his way.
To go further in to explaining why I think your goals are not in the communities best interest and why I know you are disingenuous, is because the fire fighters in East County are the lowest paid in the county, if not the state, and could apply for food stamps. For you, that still is not enough. You are one of those people that make the job of us union leaders difficult. Believe it or not, our members have to vote on contracts, and concessions. Whenever I try to do the responsible thing and ask our members to take pay cuts and other concessions, it is people like you that make it difficult. My members tell me that if we take a 10% pay cut, people like you will say that isn’t enough, no matter what the amount is. So far that has rung true.
Anyone who knows me, knows that I have done everything I could to try to improve the staffing and revenue problems of East County. You have never been involved in the one on one conversation I have had with politicians, fire chiefs, or my membership. If you were, you would know that your statements on this site about me are slanderous.
My comments stating “what a mess”, is because that is what it is. I feel that East County went back to square one. I have been a private ambulance provider in both the rural (volunteer) setting and urban area. 20 years of experience in multiple service areas. I have worked where there was one paid fire fighter who waited for volunteers to show up to respond to calls. I was on the ambulance, waiting for them to show up. Sometimes they did and sometimes they didn’t. When they didn’t, we were forced to have family members perform CPR, or hold IV bags, or open up packages, or help carry them. In my opinion that is a poor system and is third world compared to what other systems are out there. But, I do believe that people have that choice. If you live in a house on top of a hill, you know that help will be delayed, again your choice. Our union has pushed for adequate staffing, training, and response times. What is criminal about that? More staffing cost more money. That is less money that can be spread out to us “greedy fire fighters. We also have asked for adequate compensation. We have recognized the revenue situation in each and every jurisdiction we represent. We have extended contracts without any changes in compensation, we have given up negotiated raises, picked up more of our benefit cost, and have allowed our staffing levels to drop to critical levels when requested by our governing bodies. Your implication that we are money hungry thugs that own politicians and use that for personal gain couldn’t be further from the truth.
It is interesting how you felt that the single paramedic was the greatest thing for the community during your “no on S” campaign, and now feel a staffed ambulance for that community that now has no fire station, is the Cadillac version.
That leads me to this question. Since you feel that an ambulance being placed out there solves everything.
If AMR places an ambulance on or near Bethel Island, and there is a vehicle accident on Cypress near Main Street that has 3 victims with major injuries, and than 10 minutes into that incident, BI has a heart attack victim, what happens? An ambulance can only take one victim with major injuries, so this incident would require three including the one on BI. You see, in real life, “on the streets”, this kind of stuff happens on a regular basis. This is why the county can’t afford to lose resources. It really means lives. Who knows where that ambulance would come from to respond to the heart attack victim and how long it would take to get there. Would there even be a fire engine available near by? They could be committed to that vehicle accident, especially if people are trapped, or they could be on another call. I guess it is just that person’s time? Maybe so, but in this day and age in the USA, people’s odds should be better.
Check the stats regarding how much property loss there is in a structure fire in a single family home in East County as compared to the rest of the county. Check the stats on how many heart attack victims die or are permanently disabled in East County as compared to the rest of the county. Check the same with strokes, and major traumatic injuries. Check the stats from last year, and then check them again a year from now.
Yes, all fires go out, and all emergency situations are responded to in East County. Each community can determine the standard of care they want, and people can have their opinion of what is adequate or not. If you are a fire fighter, police officer, emergency room nurse, or a paramedic in another system with enough resources, you know the difference, most other people don’t. Most people don’t call 911 for themselves or their immediate family often, so they don’t have anything to compare it to.
Unfortunately, most politicians don’t know either. That is why a fire fighters who is not self serving, and who has worked in many systems and on the frontline, is not a bad source of information. I’m not sure of your level of expertise on the subject, but I can assure you that you can’t hold a candle to mine! Your best bet is to do what you are doing, and disqualify me with your made up conspiracy theory in your efforts to “grind your axe”.
Happy 4th!
That's good to see and seems to be a way to correct for the unfair Prop13 allocation formulas that bring an unreasonably small amount of tax revenue back to East County for fire services.
This concept should be explored further.
Anybody ever thought about the fact that if the department is gonna spend 10,000 plus on a volunteer that you hope will show up at times of need then possibly looking into an internship program? Departments do it and it has worked. Take these people in college trying to become firefighters and house them, assign like three to a station with one having to be on duty at all times. They want experience, they want to be on the big red engine, supply them with a place to reside and give them training while they are in the stations and boom.
Also gives you a solid pool of folks to hire and that will be fully trained and ready. This will give you more bang for your buck and put more able bodies on scene sooner which is what it's all about.
This "mess" that the union leadership and the politicians that they own (they are bought and paid for with union dues which are actually taxpayer dollars that have passed through hard working firefighters' paychecks, to te union ad then to the campaign funds of our politicians) rests at their feet.
Too any negotiations have ignored economic realities including return on investment, life expectancy, medical insurance costs and yes, the housing acket. Nw we have arrived at a place where non-public employee union workforce will displace the union frce. AMR can provide health services at much lower costs to the taxpayers than good old local 1230.
Automakers moved to Asia and ten Kentucky to shed the union costs, and we will shift from union supplied labor to te unemcumbered labor source roved by private industry.
Local 1230 has no one to blame but themselves. How many ConFire guys should reasonably be earning more than $200k per year? Well, let's see how many AMR guys are making that kind of money.
Mr. Wells is right. It s a mess when the voters take the politicians' checkbook away from them and dont allow them to spend our grandchildren's money.
But it is the right thing to do.
I don't even know you except what I you have written over the last few months. It is clear that you will never be happy regardless of what the district does. Maybe you don't have what it takes to be a firefighter, so you feel that you need to throw your weight around on the keyboard to gain respect or control. I agree, protect what little respect people still have of you. Go to the meetings, write up a proposal, heck....show up a funeral for a fallen fighter. Put yourself in their shoes if you really want to help out. If not, fight another battle.
I will be happy when I see teamwork, not this crap of constant friction regarding POC/Volunteer Firefighters. What is so sad is that most of the current firefighters came from POC's and somehow got lost as where they started to become what they are today. That is truly sad.
I think that Gil and Vince are very key players to see if this works or fails. There is no belittling of anyone. Both Gil and Vince are very intelligent and respectable people. However, they take their orders from higher up. It will take their full support, leadership, and encouragement to make a volunteer program work. They can make it easy and enjoyable or difficult and a complete failure. I hope they take the first approach.
Decker you’re a pretty sad puppy to say what I have or have not done because you have no idea. To use Firefighter West as your handicap to gain attention is quite sick. I did pay my respects to him and god bless his sole he was a great person to be around.
After these past couple of comments it is quite clear that what Vince said is so true,
" What a Mess ".
I think you are completely wrong and totally out of line. Not only does Vince Wells do his everyday job as a firefighter he also works tirelessly as the Union President for 1230. Not only does he forsake his family time for his work, he also attends every council meeting/board meeting/or to make time to meet with concerned citizens. On top of that, he takes personal attacks from asshats like you who have never even bothered to meet with him nor talk to him about the concerns that he hears from the guys on the line that he works with regarding this issues. I have never seen him once call people names, but I sure has heck have seen people blog about what an evil wretched man that he is and personally vilify him. I have also seen Dave Roberts print lies about Vince on the watchdog reports (i.e that Vince and *hint hint* that all of Con Fire firefighters put 0% into their retirement) Of course, Dave corrected it a little too late because the call to arms was out there. The guys contribute 26% of their MONTHLY paycheck to their own retirement. Do you know how hard it is to budget your household on a monthly paycheck? Do you really know what 26% looks like on TOP of state and federal taxes? And yeah, I am sure you are going to throw pension crap back in my face, but at best my husband will be retiring with less than 60% if we are lucky.
As for why this is a mess, lets look at that. According to the board meeting (and I don't know if you where there) It will take around $10,000 per person to get your volunteers ready. $10,000 per person for an ALREADY cash strapped Fire District. So let's say that you hire these guys spend the $40,000 to get them up to speed and let's say that only 10 truly stick around. (Because the others have used the training and development to pick up real fire fighter jobs) So of the 10 guys that are really committed, they are going to do this work (this dangerous job) for NO PAY and be willing to get to the fire station within 10 minutes or so to respond when needed. I don't know about you, but I would love to volunteer, but I work more than 1 hr 45 minutes away. (that's one way) And you know what, everyone in my Brentwood neighborhood has the same sort of commute, as a matter of fact other than the stay at home mom's that I am friends with, most of us work either out the HWY 4 corridor or out the Vasco corridor, not exactly prime response time areas.
Now, if we pulled volunteers from the LMC fire program, maybe the success might be a little better, but only for a couple of years as these guys are looking to get real jobs and make money.
It's too easy now a days to be a troll and make comments on blogs. Do you know what would be better, to actually meet Vince, or Burke, Steve Barr, Joel Bryant or heck even John Gonzales (PS I always try to look for you guys at the meetings) and talk to them face to face about the issues. Heck, even Carissa Pillow got out there and is trying to educate herself on the issues. While I might not agree with all of her position points, I at least admire the fact that she asks these guys questions and is willing to put her face out there.
None of us what to see money spent on programs that are just going to cost the Fire District more money, when they are already cash strapped.
And honestly, I don't think that I want a part time volunteer cutting my kids out of my car when those crazy people of Vasco run into me. IMHO, that is like asking the brain surgeon, critical case nurse, the welder doing critical demand welds, the structural engineers, the critical care nurses to step aside and let a volunteer do their job for them.
Ha funny - your comment was right under Vince's so I figured you just got the name wrong and were bashing him. See, I should take my own troll advice! LOL
The election can be held in november with candidates to choose from if enough petition signatures can be secured before a deadline.
No district voting is needed
No election to ask voters (WE WANT IT NOW)
The P.P.E.'s $6,000.oo stays with district
Firefighters in training at community colleges has alot of this training already and are anxious to get their boots dirty to gain more experience.
We may want an election now, but an election cannot be held this November with candidates because its a "two-step" process per County Elections and LAFCO--trust me I checked because like you, I do not want to see a $300k spent on two elections.
Two elections are required pursuant to fire district law (i.e., Health & Safety Code) see section 13848(d))
Just because firefighters are training and community college does not excuse the 240 hours of required training, 60 hours of medical training and possibly 100 hours learning to drive a fire engine and operate its pumps. An additional 240 hours of training would be required every year
I suggest they stay away from this idea unless they get a written MOU from local 1230 agreeing to it, relax the conditional areas of moving forward, either move forward and make it work or not move forward. This needs to be a partnership for all not conditional individual levels of acceptance by each commission member and each union member. That scenario will only create more friction.
The two articles make me feel it may fail before it starts. This district does not have money to invest on a chance. Everyone must be willing to make it happen one hundred percent. Partnership is the key to success. Everyone needs to be on board and encouraging.
I do not see any discussion on firefighters who are already credentialed and/or have a career fire job in other areas. Some of these people want to be a part of helping their local community. That’s what America is all about. This should be encouraged by the union and the staff. I am a little pessimistic about this based on the comments but I truly hope I’m wrong because this plan could be a positive thing for everyone.
Instead of rambling on blogs, why don't you email the chief an sign up? You can go do the training and spend your gas to and free classes. Upon completion, spend time away from family answering calls for free. You can even shut down the rebar business for a week while you volunteer. You can also have the joy of getting called out of the rebar business 2-3x a day due to emergencies (I am sure the company bottom line will like that). It is America right?
Truth is, we do agree on one thing, it's a bad idea to go this route with our financial problems and the training money will be wasted due to no taxpayer protections in place.
Volunteer programs work in rural areas, not suburbia!
Your response is a typical reason why this will probably not work. I know what Gil said. That same comment has been made several times in the past twenty years and broken each and every time.
He also said “Just be real clear on what it is”,
I hope Gil proves me wrong. The ball is in your court Gil, let's see what you do with it. Will you make it as difficult as last time for volunteers to participate or will you embrace this need and what the community wants ? Unless everyone gets on board this will never work. East County is a combination of urban and rural. Until it is completely urban or as the areas become urbanized such as Brentwood, Oakley, and Discovery Bay then the volunteer part should be phased into a reserve force. The outlying areas that remain rural could be more focused on wild land and the urban should be focused on what they are today. Prematurely forcing the rural areas to soon results in what we are dealing with. There is room and need for both. In time as the rural becomes urban the fire suppression will transform naturally instead of being forced by special interest . Your attitude along with some others only contributes to failure. Now we will see if this merry go round ride with continue or stop. It's entirely up to the Union, Current firefighters, Commission, and Chief. Let's not forget the Board of Supervisor. They are still tied to the District until it is truly independant. BTW, This will be my only response to your childish comment.
Of course you know what Gil said, the papers quoted 1/10 of what he said and cherry picked the best part of his 3-minutes. His explanation was left out which was just as important as he explained how rigid and demanding the training was which is WHY he wanted it to be “clear” to volunteers. Your attempt to belittle Gil and makes you a very little man as you want to proclaim childish.
By the way Johnny, you dodged my question about you volunteering and putting some skin in the game by closing down the rebar company so you can volunteer for the good of the community? Why do you suggest others volunteer and give up their time but you won’t even give the community the same courtesy? Who is the child now?